Today's issue of The Daily Princetonian had a story about a student filing a lawsuit against Tiger Inn and the University that raises significant topics about campus life. The Prince is hosting this open forum to discuss and debate the broad issues raised by the story regarding the social environment of the eating clubs.
We hope that the campus community will share their thoughts in comments in this forum in a civil manner that is germane to the topic, and all comments are subject to moderation by editors of The Daily Princetonian to ensure the privacy of any students involved.
Monday, March 31, 2008
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33 comments:
this happened a while ago I think the eating clubs have more protections in place now...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't TI the only club with a system where sober students take responsibility and ensure alcohol isn't consumed in a dangerous manner? And wasn't this initiated after the spring of 2006?
Tower has this system as well, and has been doing so for several years.
I think this is sort of ridiculous. This happened 2 years ago and a lot of things have changed since then. Also, this girl should be holding the guy responsible for sexually harassing her not the members of the club and the university 2 years later that have nothing to do with it. It's not fair to punish the current members--they certainly didn't do it. This girl is just looking for attention.
Why are they suing the university for allowing TI to recruit members and use the email system?? Of course they can do those things. Just as members of any other recognized club on any other college campus is allowed to do these things.
I think that crimes committed at the University have a strange way of disappearing. Crimes committed on campus should punished as they are anywhere else, but I can say with almost certainty that this is not the case.
If the eating clubs and the university and the strange relationship that exists between them facilitate the undermining of the law for the sake of the university's reputation, it's about time someone sued them for it.
Furthermore, I think the fact that the girl sought to have the guy exonerated at the time indicates a social issue. She brought the charges initially, probably because she was assaulted and she wanted to do the right thing. Then, knowing how it would affect her status on campus/in the club she tried to retract it. Now, however, knowing that what happened was unjust, she's resolved to take action, to give herself some peace of mind. This is at least a possible scenario, which would reflect what I think this the larger problem, and that's the importance of the eating clubs to this campus. If people saw them for what they really are, dressed up dining halls, and not the be all and end all of a Princeton experience, we'd be better off. And while I can understand why the campus community treads lightly around a serious charge, after the highly publicized false crime that occurred earlier this year, I think it's problematic that people write this girl off as an attention-getter. Why on earth would you want this kind of attention?
What do they mean to imply by saying that the University allows representatives from TI to enter dormitories? Meaning students? Wouldn't it be a little ludicrous if Princeton didn't allow students on campus? And allowing them to use the email system to recruit members? Princeton's not even remotely responsible for what occurs via its email system. I can't vouch for TI or for the accused student, but how on earth is the University at fault? They handled the situation according to her wishes.
I'm glad there's a forum for discussing this. The comment on the main Daily Princetonian page is sort of ridiculous. --
"Normal commenting has been disabled for this story due to its sensitive nature, but The Daily Princetonian is hosting an open forum for the campus community to discuss and debate the broader issues it raises on The Prox blog." --
So if normal commenting is disabled because it's a sensitive topic, why is it allowed here? In other words, if commenting is allowed here, why not on the main page? Seems silly.
I do think crimes of this nature are severely under reported and face many systemic obstacles. I hope she was not assaulted, but if she was, I hope she recovers from the party at fault, not PU, not TI. The lawyer's claims of injunctive relief are a nice distraction, but the only real reason these two parties are being sued is because of their deep pockets. People are usually very happy to adopt different "policies" and "practices" as long as it keeps them from being sued. Plus, it seems a lot of those have changed since the incident.
This issue is broader than it may first seem. It isn't just about a sexual assault, it is about the environment that leads to these things taking place. It is negligence on the part of TI that has brought this about. TI has gotten away with breaking laws for years, including the state's anti-hazing law. I'm not sure that the club's behavior would be tolerated on other campuses. We need to hold TI accountable to avoid future incidents.
TI has a dry bicker process, as do most other clubs on the street.
When TI members enter the Princeton dorms, it is to pick up the new members, not to recruit. The facts of this article/lawsuit need to be clarified before anyone can know if TI or the University should be blamed.
@11:26 -- As a TI member who did not drink, I don't know when this "hazing" that you talk about has occurred. I graduated in '03. My friends from high school attended frat/srat schools, and they had hazing. The TI bicker process has one night (of three) with a few gross aspects. I never saw someone forced to do something they didn't want to do, and I wasn't forced to drink. "Initiations" was only one night, again, I witnessed no one forced to do anything. In fact, I found the process pretty accomodating and open -- as I found all of the members. I never found TI to be "negligent" and do not think a club needs to be held responsible for someone's personal actions. Personal responsibility should be expected. By 9:45
They moved comments off the main page in case someone outed the plaintiff's identity.
This entire situation is premised on a lie about sexual assault, which never happened. In terms of drinking, Princeton and TI are really no better than any other school and no worse.
Criminal charges did not stick for a reason; the best the Plaintiff can genuinely hope for is a settlement. The points with respect to an injunction are moot considering that TI has done so much as a club over the past few years to improve safety. Those changes were made for several reasons and not because of any one incident.
Facts will come out at trial (if it ever gets there) that will vindicate both the Club and the particular student accused.
The lawsuit is based on a "lie about sexual assault"?! Wow, seriously? Why someone would fabricate a sexual assault for attention and then have her name withheld from the public is beyond me. It's time the university community opened its eyes and realized that sexual assault is rampant on this campus, instead of berating someone for taking a brave step forward against it. We should feel nothing short of empowered by this girl's actions.
I'm not saying sexual assault isn't a problem on campus; I'm saying there was no sexual assault here. You argument is basically that it is a general problem so we should support a student bringing litigation against the University community in the interests of general "empowerment".
Two Questions:
How can you be "empowered" by a lie?
What about "innocent until proven guilty"?
You are unfairly rushing to judgment.
The reason that few women come foward about being assaulted comes from the "backlash" that they will face. The reality is that nationally, 1 out of every 5 college women will have been forced into having sexual intercourse. Why do we want to pretend this doesn't happen here? Look at the person who posted the comment about "a sexual assault, that never took place." How does this person know that nothing happened? Clearly, "something" happened, otherwise TI would not have initiated changes after the sexual assault. This woman has courage to bring this case forward.
The reason that few women come foward about being assaulted comes from the "backlash" that they will face. The reality is that nationally, 1 out of every 5 college women will have been forced into having sexual intercourse. Why do we want to pretend this doesn't happen here? Look at the person who posted the comment about "a sexual assault, that never took place." How does this person know that nothing happened? Clearly, "something" happened, otherwise TI would not have initiated changes after the sexual assault. This woman has courage to bring this case forward.
Um, I don't feel empowered by her actions. I fail to see what is empowering about them. I do agree that sexual assaults are MUCH more common in college than anyone admits. While date rape is not the norm, I believe something along those lines happens to a majority of women before they graduate. And no, I'm not using the definition of "rape" which considers alcohol consumption to vitiate consent. It is a very serious issue, and I would say that unlike this case, probably only a small minority of victims make an issue of it.
By 9:45.
I am a victim of sexual assault,(it did not take place here). But some of the comments in this forum show that people just don't get it. One of the posts said that criminal charges in the this senior's case didn't stick. In my case, no criminal charges were filed, but I did win in my civil suit against the rapist. It wasn't about money, it was about vindication. I will never fully recover from the aftermath of my assault - so people need to understand the devastation that occurs for the victims.
I'd like to ask students to take a more active role in protecting one another. Be aware that the date rape drug (ruffies/roofies/Mexican valium) is often slipped into women's drinks. Please, if you see anyone putting something into a drink tell the potential victim. Watch out for one another in environments where drinking is occuring. Let's promote a campus where sexual assault is neither tolerated nor hushed up when it occurs.
@4:53
yes, seriously..."a lie about sexual assault"?
were you there? and are you aware of the definition of sexual assault?
The suit against TI and the University may not stick but the plaintiff is very brave in standing up for herself and demanding that everyone recognize what has gone wrong here.
As someone who was also injured in an unsafe club tradition, I think this girl is brave for coming out with what happened to her and trying to generate change at both the club and the university level. The fact that she waited until out of Princeton to press this case doesn't surprise me -- the culture among students on campus is decidedly pro-eating club, and taking this kind of a stand would probably have made her a social outcast on top of being a victim of sexual assault.
she's still at Princeton
How is this "open forum" any different from the comment section of the Daily Prince article?
I do think it is ludicrous that Clubs are allowed to build a section by rambling around the campus in a drunken parade, waving flags and bottles, chanting, and then entering a dorm or residential college. They are a racous throng of hooligans-- and prox cards or not, their group (or pack) behavior should not be permitted. It disrupts normal life for residents, interrupts sleep/study/sex, etc., and is a callous insult to those who bickered their club only to be hosed.
This is one practice that should be stopped.
@7:04am
perhaps it is a showy way of accepting people into the clubs, but the clubs do take the initiative and let those who were hosed know far in advance. Most people in that situation realize that pickups will occur later on, and in turn avoid the situation. Maybe this does disrupt their life, but also consider how long this process has taken place, how many people are involved with it (and enjoy it), and how difficult it can be to change traditions. I'm not saying all traditions are good, but no one should treat it as being an easy fix.
As for the issue of sexual assault, I absolutely think it is an incredibly serious issue. That being said, I think when not only girls but people in general, throw out the accusation of "sexual assault" without fairly treating the dynamics of the relationship prior to the incident in question, it is a huge reason that people will go ahead and say somebody's doing it for attention, for money, to salvage themselves from accountability of their own actions which may have led up to the incident in order to preserve some kind of personal pride, etc. I have friends who have been sexually assaulted, but I also know people who have made accusations of sexual assault after putting themselves in a vulnerable position and not controlling their own actions which were crucial to the alleged "assault." It is the latter case which makes it difficult for many people to come forward about sexual assault by making people question whether the accusation is credible or not.
Another issue which hasn't been brought forward to this point, though, is sexual assault of males. Yes, it can be hard to imagine and yes, it occurs at nowhere near the frequency of female sexual assaults, but it is perhaps an even more difficult situation to come forward for the victim in this case.
As for the incident in question, I have no proof of this, and some may interpret it as "he said, she said." However, my understanding has it that the male's actions on the night would do anything but suggest sexual assault, especially considering their prior relationship with each other...
RE: Pickups, someone wrote:
also consider how long this process has taken place, how many people are involved with it (and enjoy it), and how difficult it can be to change traditions. I'm not saying all traditions are good, but no one should treat it as being an easy fix.
Nice to know you intend to be a change agent in our society. Segegration, sexism, discrimination were (are) all traditions that need to be changed... but you can't even contemplate changing pickups.
Boy do I have great hope in our future, if you are a future leader.
@4:38 -- I realize that looking at the situation with all the facts is important. From a common sense perspective, you are a right. However, relationship status is not legally related to a rape charge. A husband can be convicted of raping his wife in many states. Despite the relationship these two had or might have had, it does not make it impossible for a sexual assault to have occured. It might help us to understand the guy's confusion or "mistake", but it would not eradicate the crime (or tort).
By 9:45.
@7:04,
first of all, all of the clubs have a sober officer system in place. security on the street has evolved over the last several years, and is now much different than it was before.
second of all, pickups are done in conjunction with university approval. public safety is notified and there is an escort around campus. For most of the clubs, a dean is also present. the clubs agree not to bring alcohol onto the campus. everyone does what they can to make the given situation safest, especially over the past few years.
This case should go on Judge Joe Brown. It's Joe Time!
I believe that the statute of of limitations in New Jersey is 2 years. For serious sexual assault cases it is indefinite but I do not believe this falls into that category legally because it was not a violent assault (it was, at some point, a consensual hookup). It's interesting that she decided to file it right on time.
Ultimately though, I think this is her parents doing.
Wait- TI bicker is dry now?
Could not find a suitable section so I written here, how to become a moderator for your forum, that need for this?
Just wanted to say hello all. This is my first post.
I would like to learn alot here.
I just want too take time too thank the active members for doing what you do and make this community great im a long time reader and first time poster so i just wanted to say thanks.
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